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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails (Read 2669 times)
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Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
09/21/15 at 1:13pm
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I've been riding the same specialized hard rock for the past 16 years, but with the growing interest of my daughters in MTB I've been looking at finally getting around to upgrading my bike. (It's true that this is completely selfish and a bit desperate, but I can barely keep up with them on roads - they're going to toast this rigid suspension.) Due to being slightly shorter than average height and perennial beginner experience, I was initially looking at a normal 27.5 tire hardtail.  However, it seems like companies are all jumping on the plus platform in the 2016 model year.

Regardless of the brand/model, reviews seem to be saying the same things: more forgiving for beginners, fun ride, surprisingly fast even with a slower tire.  I looked around for threads in the forum about 27.5+, but it looks like there hasn't been much discussion aside from 29+ a page back and a 27.5+ WTB thread from over a year ago.  So I don't know how much interest or experience people have in these.  Am I an outlier in being really excited?

I never really jumped on the 29er wagon because I found a lot of the frames weren't sized right for my frame.  While I'm worried about that being the case with 27.5+ being a similar size, it looks like (in theory) the angles of the plus bikes are more my size.

What I saw that I really liked about the 27.5+ releases coming out is that many of them have mid-range gear at a much more affordable price than the comparable normal bikes.  Norco has Sram GX on a bike under $2500; Orbea has Shimano SLX on a bike under $1500; Specialized has a dropper post on a bike at $1600.  I'm very curious about what the Airborne Griffin might look like if they get it out this year.

Have opinions changed on 27.5+ bikes over the past year since the WTB tire came out?  Where do you think they fit in the world of cycling?

What I found:
Marin Pine Mountain 1 - $989
Norco Torrent 7.2 - $1,450
Orbea Loki H30 - $1,499
Specialized Fuse Comp - $1,600
Mongoose Ruddy Expert - $1,999 (not released?)
Airborne Griffin - $1,999 (not released)
Orbea Loki H10 - $2,099
Specialized Fuse Expert - $2,100
Norco Torrent 7.1 - $2,425
Jamis Dragonslayer - $2,699
Marin Pine Mount 2 - $2,749
Orbea Loki H-ltd - $2,999
Specialise Fuse Pro - $3,100
Scott Scale Plus 720 - not released, low end
Scott Scale Plus 710 - not released, high end

For my experience, riding style, and budget, anything at the Specialized Fuse Comp or cheaper looks like an awesome choice.  I've been leaning toward either the Norco 7.2 or Orbea H30 but finding a demo of any of them right now is pretty much impossible.
« Last Edit: 09/21/15 at 2:07pm by Unfated »  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #1 - 09/21/15 at 2:23pm
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Forget the hype and buy what fits(physically) and fits your budget.  If you're happy with it, thats all that matters and you'll end up riding it more.  Personally, I like a steel hardtail 29er.  Everyone has their preferences, opinions, etc, but the only one that matters is yours.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #2 - 09/21/15 at 2:41pm
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I guess what I'm asking amongst the questions I have is, "Is this all just hype?"

I notice that Giant didn't release a 27.5+ model at all, while Charge so embraced 27.5+ that they've dropped the 29 lineup.  A lot of brands have all jumped in at the same time, and the initial word is very positive.  Now, is this just 1st reviews blowing smoke for me, or is this the best direction to go right now when I'm looking to finally get something new?

Searching a bit more this morning, I found even more brands: Cannondale Beast of the East, Advocate Hayduke, Felt Surplus (mythical like the Airborne Griffin), Charge Cooker, and Bianchi Jab.  I don't tend to pay much attention to the market since I've been riding the same thing for forever, but it seems like a lot of investment coming from a lot of brands.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #3 - 09/21/15 at 2:43pm
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what he said  ^
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #4 - 09/21/15 at 5:07pm
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I have not ridden a Plus bike, but have ridden a bunch of fat bikes.  I have enjoyed them.

Last winter we had some wet times and I rode Uwharrie a lot.  I put 2.4s on the my XC bike and never felt I needed more flotation then they provided.

Its worth noting that local trails are closed when they are soft.  So the primary advantage of a fat or Plus bike is not applicable locally.

Other side note, a 27.5+ is very close to the rolling diameter of a 29, so if you do not like/fit 29ers, you need to look at 26+, if that's your thing.

  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #5 - 09/21/15 at 5:15pm
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renoirbud wrote on 09/21/15 at 5:07pm:

Other side note, a 27.5+ is very close to the rolling diameter of a 29, so if you do not like/fit 29ers, you need to look at 26+, if that's your thing.


Yes, that's a big concern for me!  I sit just at the edge where I could ride a 29 but it doesn't feel quite right/too big.  I've heard 27.5 is very close but maybe just a hair shorter.  It's the difference of mm's, I feel like.  I'd love to demo some of these to see if they fall just enough smaller to be in my "sweet spot" of riding comfort.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #6 - 09/21/15 at 5:33pm
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How tall are you?  Its seems strange that you couldn't find a 29er that fit..... They do seem a bit "big" at first..... But after a few rides that translates to momentum, speed and smiles for miles Smiley a 29er could be both that and a 27.5+ bike if you bought the right bike and had 2 wheel sets....
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #7 - 09/21/15 at 5:43pm
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I'm about 5'8", but with a very short 28" inseam.  The friends I ride with have all gone to a 29 and are all about my height, but I've not enjoyed riding any of their bikes for that feeling of the frame being too big and stepdown being a huge drop.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #8 - 09/21/15 at 6:02pm
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I'm sure if you searched you could find one with a lower standover in size small.... But if just flat don't like the ride of a 29er than that doesn't matter....I personally feel like most 2.4 tires are plenty big combined with a wide rim.....
« Last Edit: 09/21/15 at 6:16pm by FredRubble »  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #9 - 09/21/15 at 6:26pm
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I was in a similar boat 6 months ago about the time 27.5+ were making a lot of noise.  At 5'6" and a shorter than normal inseam, I was still considering a 29.  Eventually, I decided the 27.5 was the best fit and did not have the option to try a 27.5+.  From what I have seen, the 27.5+ standover heights are about the same as 29.

One thing I learned is that don't let standover limit your selection of bikes.  With 26's basically non-existent, the only bikes I find with the normal 1-2" clearance for me are xtra small frames--these frames to not fit my upper body and do not work for me.

I read an article a few months ago on 27.5+ hardtail where the author concluding the extra tire size made the 27.5+ hardtail comparable to a 29er full suspension.  Got me interested but I'm not in the market now.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #10 - 09/21/15 at 8:58pm
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I agree, stand over is one of the less important metrics for determining fit
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I'm rather small and ride a 29er with a shorter top tube length that fits my shorter reach.
« Last Edit: 09/21/15 at 9:01pm by OoHoO »  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #11 - 09/21/15 at 11:42pm
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OoHoO wrote on 09/21/15 at 8:58pm:
I agree, stand over is one of the less important metrics for determining fit
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I'm rather small and ride a 29er with a shorter top tube length that fits my shorter reach.

After having read the link, I suspect that standover height only matters if you fall. I'll spare everyone the details on my ride:fall ratio Wink.

That said, none of the hardtail 29ers I've tried so far had the right standover height to match my arms and legs.  I found a couple threads on this very problem (small inseam length 29er sizing) at MTB, so it looks like I have some digging to do to see if I can find one with better geometry.  Jamis looks like they have good choices for sure.  Looking closer at it, I'm positive now that the Orbea Loki will work for short inseam since it dips down so far near the seat.

As a related part of this, though - it still looks like the equivalent 29er hardtail price points that match up to the 27.5+ price points have inferior equipment.  I really liked Fredrubble's suggestion of starting with one style tire and getting a second set in the other.  I think then I could get a set of 29er tires to put on the 27.5+ frame and it would still work.  Thanks for all of the help and suggestions so far!
« Last Edit: 09/21/15 at 11:43pm by Unfated »  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #12 - 09/22/15 at 7:40pm
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IMHO, I would tend to disagree with standover... but then again, I think it all depends on what type of rider you want to be.  Lower standover for me means that I can move the bike below me a lot better and is important (at least to me) for high speed descents, rock gardens, and cornering cause it allows me to exaggerate my body english more than I can with higher standover bikes.  If you look at BMX bikes there is a reason they are so maneuverable and that in part is that they are small, light, and can be moved below you very easy.  FWIW, I'm shorter than the average person so having room to move the bike (standover) below me matters.  Love all wheel sizes but 29er's are great for local trails.
« Last Edit: 09/22/15 at 8:47pm by csquared »  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #13 - 09/22/15 at 7:58pm
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The Orbea Loki is going to be awesome. So it is a 27.5"+ or a 29er. It comes with 27.5+ but it has the clearance for 29er. So lets say you get over your beginner stages and you want some thing to roll faster, you can upgrade the wheelset to a 29er and have the clearance for it in the fork and frame.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #14 - 09/23/15 at 2:25am
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UncleThunder wrote on 09/22/15 at 7:58pm:
The Orbea Loki is going to be awesome. So it is a 27.5"+ or a 29er. It comes with 27.5+ but it has the clearance for 29er. So lets say you get over your beginner stages and you want some thing to roll faster, you can upgrade the wheelset to a 29er and have the clearance for it in the fork and frame.

Yeah, that's exactly the way I see it!  I suspect some of the other 3.0" bikes will work that way, too - so maybe also true for Specialized, Felt, and Cannondale.  The more I look at the Loki the more I like it, though. It's the only one that manages both a 3" tire and a front derailleur until the Jamis Dragonslayer at nearly twice the price.  The charge cooker 3 at $1800 with a 1x11 is also interesting, but the bike style is maybe too plain (I know this has no bearing on anything, but I just can't get past the simple look).
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #15 - 09/23/15 at 1:23pm
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Unfated wrote on 09/23/15 at 2:25am:

Yeah, that's exactly the way I see it!  I suspect some of the other 3.0" bikes will work that way, too - so maybe also true for Specialized, Felt, and Cannondale.  The more I look at the Loki the more I like it, though. It's the only one that manages both a 3" tire and a front derailleur until the Jamis Dragonslayer at nearly twice the price.  The charge cooker 3 at $1800 with a 1x11 is also interesting, but the bike style is maybe too plain (I know this has no bearing on anything, but I just can't get past the simple look).


I don't care who you are, you always want your bike to look "cool" to you. No one wants to ride a dumb looking bike. I think the Loki is the most versatile. I have a 29er HT with the same geo and it is a fun bike. Perfect for Charlotte and some of the more tame mountain Trails.

If I didnt build up my bike I would buy the Orbea Loki over any of the bikes.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #16 - 09/23/15 at 2:19pm
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I'd really like to try one of these 27.5+ hardtails.  I have a bigger travel all mountain bike now and think this would be a sweet addition to my garage.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #17 - 09/23/15 at 2:25pm
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Updated list...

Marin Pine Mountain 1                $989 
Norco Torrent 7.2                $1,450 
Orbea Loki H30                        $1,499 
Specialized Fuse Comp                $1,600 
Cannondale Beast of the East 3 $1,620 
Charge Cooker 3                        $1,800 
Airborne Griffin                        $1,999 
Orbea Loki H10                        $2,099 
Specialized Fuse Expert        $2,100 
Cannondale Beast of the East 2 $2,130 
Norco Torrent 7.1                 $2,425 
RSD Seargant Aluminum         $2,599 
Jamis Dragonslayer                 $2,699 
Marin Pine Mount 2                 $2,749 
Cannondale Beast of the East 1 $2,770 
Orbea Loki Hltd                          $2,999 
Specialise Fuse Pro                  $3,100 
RSD Seargant Stainless Steel          $4,599 
RSD Seargant Titanium                 $4,599 
Bianchi Jab Plus 27.0 XT 2x10   ?? 
Bianchi Jab 27.1 GX 1x11         ?? 
Bianchi Jab 27.2 XT 2x10         ?? 
Mongoose Ruddy Expert - $1,999 (not released?) ?? 
Scott Scale Plus 720 - not released, low end       ?? 
Scott Scale Plus 710 - not released, high end       ?? 
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #18 - 09/23/15 at 8:29pm
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The Scotts are looking pretty sick as well..... But that Loki is nice!
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #19 - 09/24/15 at 2:09am
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A Friend of mine took the Regional Orbea Rep Loki out for a spin at the WWC and he fell in love with it.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #20 - 09/24/15 at 12:14pm
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Unfated wrote on 09/21/15 at 5:43pm:
I'm about 5'8", but with a very short 28" inseam.  The friends I ride with have all gone to a 29 and are all about my height, but I've not enjoyed riding any of their bikes for that feeling of the frame being too big and stepdown being a huge drop.


I wonder if maybe you just need to give it more time? I'm 5'7" and ride the Airborne HobGoblin 29er in a 17.5 inch frame and find it perfect. I did have to change the handlebar to get dialed in. When I ride my old 26er it's wonky.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #21 - 09/24/15 at 5:39pm
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I'm 5'5 and ride a 29er small.  I probably have the same inseam at about 27-28inch.  Hence the reason I like a bike with low standover.  Getting the cockpit dialed in is probably what you need to consider and not all frames are equal so it probably depends on what bikes your friends are riding on a 29er.  A short stem, wider bars, saddle adjustment will probably improve your perception of 29ers.

I have a 29er with a 40mm stem, 740+ bars with a 51mm offset fork.  This improves the handling on the 29er and makes it feel more nimble and not so much like a wagon wheel.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #22 - 09/24/15 at 7:39pm
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60mm stem and 780mm bars, i could and should get a smaller stem

6'2" on a 29er
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #23 - 09/24/15 at 7:49pm
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Its not a question of height for sure.... I've ridden a bunch of 29ers (at 5'11") that for whatever reason felt like slugs..... When you find the right one.... You find freedom!
Grin
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #24 - 09/25/15 at 2:03am
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On the 29+, I just rented a trek stache. Thought it was going to feel overly big, but did not. It was actuall suprisingly nimble, except in the realy tight switch backs, but 
Still  decent.  The tires just roll and grip like crazy, up and down hill technical was a breeze. Once you got rolling you could really rip through the trail. I was able to log 47 miles on the bike, not until toward the end did it feel heavy due to my legs going out! 29+ and steel, now that would be a dream,  may be in my future.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #25 - 10/03/15 at 9:45pm
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I rode a Jamis Dragonslayer at Interbike.

I hated it. 
Heavy, slow and draggy. Felt like I was pedaling soup. Air pressure is going to be a very big deal. The Jamis tech recommended setting pressure at 12psi and if i spun fast the whole dang bike bounced like I was on a horse. 

On the positive side it turned nicely and really floated over small to medium trail chatter but all in all I was very happy to get back on a Tallboy.

Maybe if I had the bike for a little while I could dial it in and be happy but honestly I have zero desire to try again.



  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #26 - 10/04/15 at 3:14pm
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mlong623 wrote on 10/03/15 at 9:45pm:
I rode a Jamis Dragonslayer at Interbike.

I hated it. 
Heavy, slow and draggy. Felt like I was pedaling soup. Air pressure is going to be a very big deal. The Jamis tech recommended setting pressure at 12psi and if i spun fast the whole dang bike bounced like I was on a horse. 

On the positive side it turned nicely and really floated over small to medium trail chatter but all in all I was very happy to get back on a Tallboy.

Maybe if I had the bike for a little while I could dial it in and be happy but honestly I have zero desire to try again.

Wow, I didn't realize until you mentioned it that the Dragonslayer is roughly 33 lbs!  The word I've heard on the medium frame Orbea Loki puts it just under 28lbs.  For my size, that would be a huge difference.  Both of those are in the small number of plus bikes that are actually using a 3" tire, so now I'm curious if maybe some of the 2.8" ones might end up being a little lighter - or even just feel like it.

By the way, one of the guys at the Sun and Ski down on Providence mentioned that they are going to be getting in the Marin Pine Mountain in the next month, so we may start to see a lot of these plus bikes show up in town soon.

I took a step back over the past week and checked out a lot of the local 27.5 models available, and a few of the 29ers, too.  I definitely feel more informed but no closer to a decision.  The Scott Scale felt right, but seemed to have cheaper components than the plus bikes are sporting.  I also really liked the Marin Nail Trail, but the 29 version of that bike is way too big for me.  I'm very optimistic that the Loki will end up being the right fit, but more than ever I'm convinced that I will need to climb aboard before I know for sure.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #27 - 10/08/15 at 10:31am
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Bike Depot in Waxhaw is advertising that they have the Jamis Dragon Slayer.  I'm still not sure the steel 33 lb'er is the direction I'm looking to go (plus that price point), but I may want to drive down to check it out anyway.
  
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Re: Explosion of Semi-fat/B+/27.5+ Hardtails
Reply #28 - 10/09/15 at 4:48pm
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I just found out that Fuji is getting into the game with three 27.5+ models for the 2016 season.  There will be a high and low end version of one called the Bighorn, and a beginner version called the Beartooth.  Based on what I see from the website, and reported pricing showing up in Sweden, the Beartooth will be priced in line the Orbea Loki H30 and have similar equipment (Deore Shifters, Deore FD, XT RD, but M395 brakes).  The Bighorn low end model looks to be a  sub-$2k option that will have SLX/XT components, RockShox Reba, and a dropper post.  No idea yet on the high end Bighorn.  I like the XT rear derailleur on the Beartooth, but for me the Loki still has the advantage of SLX/SLX front and rear combo plus the internal cable routing (plus cosmetics, of course).  The other knock I see for me on the Beartooth is the large frame size - even the small size has a standover near 31".

I'm pretty sure there is a Fuji shop or two nearby, but I'm not sure when the Fuji bikes will go from marketing to the store window.  At this point Fuji is 3 months behind everyone else's bike and nobody seems to have much inventory in Charlotte yet.
  
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