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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Tubeless tires won't stay inflated (Read 2128 times)
Ridefour15
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Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
03/03/17 at 6:15pm
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I set up my tires as tubeless on Sunday, but over the course of the afternoon they were losing air fairly fast.  I set them up with a compressor, let out air until they were squishy and pumped back up to 20PSI with a floor pump.  By the time I was packing my car they were 16PSI.  Pumped up, drive to BYT (30 minutes), check and they're down to 17 or 18.  Pump, start riding.  3 miles into the ride I have to use my hand pump.  7 miles in, use hand pump again.  Get to car after 10.5 miles and check with floor pump and they're 18PSI again.  After I got home I checked one more time and they seemed to be finally holding air.  I assume that I didn't do enough shaking of the wheels to distribute the sealant and the bead wasn't completely sealed but I'm not really sure.

Fast forward to yesterday (Thursday) and I check the bike that's been hanging on the wall since Sunday afternoon and the front tire is only a few PSI, whereas the back tire is not only flat but the bead is completely off the rim on all sides (the bike hangs against the wall by the back wheel).

When I set up the tires it sounded like the bead had connected on each wheel although I don't remember what pressure it was at before I let out air to ride-able pressure.

Setup is:
Industry Nine Trail 24 wheels with factory tape
Industry Nine tubeless valve (one that comes with the wheelsets)
Specialized Ground Control (F) and Renegade (R), both 2.3" 2Bliss tires
Bontrager sealant, using two full cups for each tire.



Did I do something wrong in my setup?
  
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Slothzilla
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #1 - 03/03/17 at 7:01pm
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In my experience, new tires like to "soak up" the sealant initially to fill in the tiny little holes all tires inherently have.  When setting up new tires/wheels for the first time I like to get a bucket and leave the tire on the bucket parallel to the ground for a while rotating often and switching sides to make sure sealant gets all throughout the casing and bead.  That being said, I still lose a few PSI out of my tires over a couple day period...but not enough to go flat.  You could pump up your tire and then use soapy water to find if you've got a leak around the valve or a pesky portion of the bead.  I've found that the valve just needs to be snug.  Too tight and, for whatever reason, I get leaks.  Keep at it, tubeless is definitely a worthy upgrade even if it requires a bit more time getting your bike ready for a ride. 
  
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Ridefour15
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #2 - 03/03/17 at 9:15pm
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I'll try that out tomorrow morning.

I definitely will keep at it. I thought low pressure with tubes was fine, but tubeless I felt like I was riding on pillows any time I cruised through a rooty or rocky section.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #3 - 03/03/17 at 9:30pm
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pump the tires up to 30 or so psi, spray the entire wheel/tire with soapy water. If the bubbles come out of the sidewall, more stans and shaking around. If it comes out around the valve stem, you might have a problem with the tape. 

If you can get them to hold air decent for an hour, pump up to 30-40 and go for a quick ride around the block. Sometimes they will seal after the first ride. But don't go too far.
« Last Edit: 03/03/17 at 9:31pm by Screaming Knees »  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #4 - 03/03/17 at 10:40pm
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After riding 'em around the block..

Air 'em up to 50-60 psi, and let 'em sit overnight.

If it's the valve, you'll have to take them apart. Most people I know are now using a small piece of duct tape at the valve hole.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #5 - 03/04/17 at 12:13am
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You didn't use tire levers to install them, did you?  That's the easiest way to nick the tape.  I-9 uses a fairly thin tape and only put on one layer.  I learned that 2 layers of their tape makes for a better/more reliable seal.  The tape can be purchased directly from them and they have like 2 or 3 widths.

One thing I always do with the valve stem is to rest the valve stem on the corner of a counter and push on the rim to compress the rubber part into the rim while hand tightening the stem nut.  Makes for a better and more secure seal at the valve. 

We sell a lot of I-9 wheels and a lot of Specialized tires and found that's what works best.  We also use Stan's sealant exclusively.

Smiley
  
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Ridefour15
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #6 - 03/04/17 at 12:18am
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I probably used tire levers when I was using tubes (few hundred miles on each tire using tubes), but didn't need them without a tube as they went on pretty easy by hand.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #7 - 03/04/17 at 3:16am
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I also found the levers could be a problem to the tape, and use a similar method to compress the valve when tightening.  Another thing that has helped me though is a different sealant.  I switched to Orange sealant last time I installed new tires and tape and it seems to work better than the luck I was having with Stan's.  Could be a coincidence, but I don't lose but a couple of pounds of air over a week
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #8 - 03/04/17 at 6:27am
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DK wrote on 03/04/17 at 3:16am:
I also found the levers could be a problem to the tape, and use a similar method to compress the valve when tightening.  Another thing that has helped me though is a different sealant.  I switched to Orange sealant last time I installed new tires and tape and it seems to work better than the luck I was having with Stan's.  Could be a coincidence, but I don't lose but a couple of pounds of air over a week

Stan's race sealant Friggin stops up anything, leaky side walls, funny tape, crooked valve. I mix race Stan's 1:1 with reg Stan's and it stops up really well and has a long dry out time.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #9 - 03/04/17 at 3:24pm
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10:00AM: Unhooked the bead on the front tire so both were essentially starting from scratch.  Pushed in valve from outer side and screwed the nut tighter, checked rim strip for damage (didn't see any).  Sprayed soapy water along the bead of both tires, used compressor to set bead and then floor pump to get both to exactly 50PSI.  Shook the wheels a ton, spinning them around. From the popping sounds the bead set much easier this time.

I'm going to let these sit for a few hours, as I'm not sure if I'll even get a chance to ride today.  Hopefully they keep holding air. I didn't see or hear any leaks anywhere along the rim or sidewalls.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #10 - 03/04/17 at 5:20pm
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Update at 12:20: Rear tire was sitting at about 38PSI, front tire at 46PSI.  I pumped both back up to 50PSI and shook them around again before I let them sit another few hours.  I just have them leaning against some cabinets in my garage.

This still seems like a very fast rate for air loss.  Is this normal due to high pressure or should I check something else out?
« Last Edit: 03/04/17 at 5:21pm by Ridefour15 »  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #11 - 03/04/17 at 5:56pm
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Ridefour15 wrote on 03/04/17 at 5:20pm:
Update at 12:20: Rear tire was sitting at about 38PSI, front tire at 46PSI.  I pumped both back up to 50PSI and shook them around again before I let them sit another few hours.  I just have them leaning against some cabinets in my garage.

This still seems like a very fast rate for air loss.  Is this normal due to high pressure or should I check something else out?



Just go back to tubes and ride your bike
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #12 - 03/04/17 at 6:56pm
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I have no experience with the Bontrager sealant.  A quick search netted a review stating that it takes longer to seal the carcass of the tire than Stans does. It sounds like this is your 'issue' and should go away after a few rides. Pressure  drop overnight is pretty normal when first set up. Spin your tires and make sure the tread rolls true- making sure the beads are fully seated.  Get a few rides in and you should be good from there. When you run out of the Bontrager sealant, I'd recommend trying the Stans. I think you'll be happier.
« Last Edit: 03/04/17 at 6:59pm by mountainbiker90 »  
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Yeah, to the best of my knowledge:)
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #13 - 03/04/17 at 7:10pm
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I don't have much to add as it sounds like you should be on the right track. But a Specialized "2Bliss" 2.3 tire when sealed for the first time takes a good bit of sealant to fully coat the inside. These tires don't have the butyl lining that some other tubeless tires do, and it's imperative that you fully coat the entire inside of the tire or it will leak through the sidewalls. I don't know how much sealant your scoops have.

One other thing you probably did was to make sure that the bead is seated evenly by looking at the border that Specialized tires have on the sidewall. When seated properly it should be just slightly away from the rim and even all the way around. When mounting them I inflate them, bounce them, and twist the sidewalls until I get an even border all the way around and I know the bead is seated properly. But you probably did this, but just in case.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #14 - 03/04/17 at 8:10pm
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Ridefour15 wrote on 03/04/17 at 5:20pm:
Update at 12:20: Rear tire was sitting at about 38PSI, front tire at 46PSI.  I pumped both back up to 50PSI and shook them around again before I let them sit another few hours.  I just have them leaning against some cabinets in my garage.

This still seems like a very fast rate for air loss.  Is this normal due to high pressure or should I check something else out?



You need to dial that pressure back, Keemosabi.  That's 10psi above max rated pressure on most tubeless rims.  I've had tires blow off at 60 psi and have the scars to prove it!! Shocked
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #15 - 03/05/17 at 12:18am
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Tubeless is overrated.

I wont use another non-UST rated tire. Otherwise, it's gettin' a tube.

Save yourself some grief.. Take 'em up to Cornelius and let The Cycle Path worry about it.  Wink
« Last Edit: 03/05/17 at 12:35am by IntheBush »  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #16 - 03/05/17 at 2:49pm
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IntheBush wrote on 03/05/17 at 12:18am:
Tubeless is overrated.

I wont use another non-UST rated tire. Otherwise, it's gettin' a tube.

Save yourself some grief.. Take 'em up to Cornelius and let The Cycle Path worry about it.  Wink



This guy speaks the truth.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #17 - 03/05/17 at 3:37pm
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I just checked them a minute ago after sitting almost 24 hours;  the front tire was about 16PSI and the rear tire was about 12PSI.

I think I'm going to return that sealant and just go back to tubes.  As great as the ride felt I don't think this is worth the hassle.


EDIT: Drained sealant, put in tubes.  Used the soapy water on the bead trick just to get it to seat easier than it normally does.  Saw tons of air bubbles coming out all around the sidewalls of both tires as I was getting them up to 40PSI to properly seat the bead, so perhaps none of those were sealing.  Also saw one or two spots where air bubbles were coming our around the spoke on the rim. None of these things were showing yesterday.  Perhaps I'll try tubeless again when I get new tires but for now new tires are hardly in the budget.
« Last Edit: 03/05/17 at 5:50pm by Ridefour15 »  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #18 - 03/05/17 at 5:49pm
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Its definitely a learning curve to go through, but once you get it, you'll never go back.  I had a similar experience the first time with a tubeless conversion.  Made it about half way through the tennis court side of Reni before I was walking.  
I have found that once you have the bead seated, sealant in, shaken around on both sides; put the wheel on the bike and ride it.  Just around your house/apt, up and down the street, etc.  Quit stressing about the pressures just sitting and ride it.  They will seal(with Stans, not familiar with other sealants).  Some tires (Kenda Small Block 8's, my choice) can be hard to seal.  Stick with it and after a couple of rides, the tires may lose 4 lbs, if that.  I do not carry a spare tube, pump or inflator of any kind now on the mtb.  I've had one flat in the past 10 years from a piece of steel that went through the tire.  Tubes work, but they also pinch flat.
  
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Re: Tubeless tires won't stay inflated
Reply #19 - 03/06/17 at 1:19am
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Ridefour15 wrote on 03/05/17 at 3:37pm:
I just checked them a minute ago after sitting almost 24 hours;  the front tire was about 16PSI and the rear tire was about 12PSI.

I think I'm going to return that sealant and just go back to tubes.  As great as the ride felt I don't think this is worth the hassle.


EDIT: Drained sealant, put in tubes.  Used the soapy water on the bead trick just to get it to seat easier than it normally does.  Saw tons of air bubbles coming out all around the sidewalls of both tires as I was getting them up to 40PSI to properly seat the bead, so perhaps none of those were sealing.  Also saw one or two spots where air bubbles were coming our around the spoke on the rim. None of these things were showing yesterday.  Perhaps I'll try tubeless again when I get new tires but for now new tires are hardly in the budget.

If you have Specialized tires and I-9 wheels you shouldn't be having a problem with them holding air.  The tire side walls are not completely sealed and count on the sealant to seal the pores.  Even then it is not uncommon to see some seapage from the sidewalls.  That is normal and doesn't affect the tubeless performance.  I really think your problem is with either the sealant or the application of said sealant.  

In fact, I'm so confident it's your sealant and I can get it to work for you that I'll install Stan's sealant back in it and get it to work for you for free!

(We do these setups with the exact same components all the time with no issues.)
  
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