I'm curious about the sign at the trail head situation.  This stems from a thread a couple of weeks back that started to produce some good ideas (IMO) but then disappeared.  And at the time I  became too busy to get to the boards which is why I'm posting up now.   

With all of this wet weather there has been much chatter about how people are riding the trails without concern for the trails themselves.   

I don't understand why we can't produce some good quality signs, roughly 16"x20" made of metal and placed in a manner with which they cannot be removed at each trail head maintained by the TTB.   

These signs clearly stating: 
a) These Trails Maintained and Managed by TTB 
b) outline details of 24 hour rain rule
c) elaborate on the simple common sense that if the trail is mostly muddy it should not be ridden
d) All work is done by volunteers and if you ride you should volunteer some time on the trail.
e) link to the TTB main page and pointing out trail status on that site

In addition to this sign which would remain at the trail head at all times there has to be a way to add another sign when there are plans for a work day coming up within the next week.   
In other words a sign that simply says "Trail Work Day this coming Saturday".  There could be space for putting in custom times, or it could say "Meet at trail head at 9:00 am" and from there people could make their way to where the work is being done.   

It seems like a sign like this could be made with a 1" x 1/4" slot on top and bottom where a "I" bolt could slip through and the TC could lock the sign to the post/tree.  And then remove it after the work day is done.   

These signs could be placed either right outside of the main trail head or within a few feet right inside the woods/trail.  And large enough to be seen and impossible to ignore.   

I'm of the opinion that with the thousands of dollars we have been granted, we could afford to get some good signs made.

Again, this is just my two cents, I'm curious why we can't pull this together?  It seems like it could educate those that just don't realize what the TTB do and remind others before they go ride on muddy trails that their actions are causing more work for fellow riders.   

 

I'll shall step off of the soap box and listen to the masses...

Since I am bored I will provide the counter argument

Solar wrote on 07/07/13 at 6:21pm:


It's really not a rule.  It's more like a suggestion.  Rules suggest real authority, and lets face it at parks like FJB where the trail is multi use, not gated or controlled the THTB's have no real authority.

Additionally the folks that are going out there and damaging the trail aren't going to stop because of a sign
Solar wrote on 07/07/13 at 6:21pm:


You could also use that same amount of money and hire contract labor, buy materials or rent a machine  to build better trail or rebuild a section that is overly sensitive to water damage/erosion.


Gravitythief76 wrote on 07/07/13 at 6:59pm:


What real purpose does that serve other than feed some kind of ego need? (I don't mean that in a bad way, but really what is the purpose?)  Again do you really think the people that are out there damaging the trails are going to change their behavior because of a sign, or the fact that the trails are maintained by a volunteer group?

Gravitythief76 wrote on 07/07/13 at 9:23pm:


You are missing the point.  The question is would you get more value out of putting up a sign or investing in trail materials, labor or a machine time?

The truth is you can't truly value the sign or at least a fancy sign because it probably does nothing.  My point is you are better off spending your dollars elsewhere.

Gravitythief76 wrote on 07/07/13 at 9:23pm:


Yes Ego.  I don't mean it in a bad way.  Again I am just saying what is the purpose of putting up a sign with really big letters as you mentioned.  What return does the club get other than making your (and others) Ego feel better?  If that is the desired result it maybe worth it.  If I were voting I'd say spend your money elsewhere.  Especially if I were the TC.  I would just build something with the materials or labor that I want to ride vs putting up a sign that people that abuse the trail will just ride by.

Actually every trail has signage with exactly that wordage on it except about not riding when it's muddy.

I do agree with RobP on several point and also disagree on a couple.  More signs rarely guarantee more people will read or even see them.  The signs we already have up tell you these are volunteer built trails, when the meetings are and how to get involved doing trail if you want to help out along with the website address.  The problem that some trails have are way too many points of access.  Prime example is Beatty.  Maybe the signs we already have need to be put at every point of access so they are not missed.   

They club has money for this.  I think maybe adding a sign that recommends not riding if muddy would be a good idea.  Detailed information on the "24 Hour Rule" would be more words that would be ignored.  Prime example of that is some of the signage at Fisher Farm.  A brown sign with 16-18 bullet points.  You read like 3 or 4 and ignore the rest.

I disagree that the same amount of $ spent on signs could do any appreciable good contracting out a trail builder.  (The new berms at Sherman cost almost $2,000 for materials and labor.)   But that's splitting hairs.  There are very few trails that don't have some areas that suffer from wet weather or could benefit from a reroute or more armoring.

And then some trails even with a good layout can suffer from poor soil composition.

Trails are always a work in process.

Last Sunday when Brian and I fixed the bridge at NM, a couple walking by and ask me if we worked for P&R. I turned around so he could see my TTB trail crew shirt and told him we were volunteers. He ask if we took donations and I told him "yes". I told him to go to the TTB website and make a donation online. I don't know if he did, but at least, he knows the trail he was enjoying was maintained by volunteers.

I'm not naive enough to believe posting a sign anywhere will change everyone's behavior.  Let's be realistic.   

I can speak to my own experience from 15 years ago.  I moved here from Chicago and I was of the nature that we ride whenever we can find time regardless of weather or trail conditions.  It had nothing to do with thinking I was going to go out and trash a trail, it was that I had never been educated otherwise.  Once I learned about what it takes to build and maintain a trail my attitude towards when to ride changed dramatically.   

To the point that the cost would be better spent towards a tool, I say this is a relatively small cost to produce some signage which has potential to add to our numbers (members, volunteers and educated riders).  Which would be a better use of resources- buying a tool or buying signs that have the potential to bring in volunteers that could bring with them countless tools?

RobP wrote on 07/07/13 at 9:42pm:


You could argue that a brand new tool sitting in a shed or trunk doesn't do any good either.  My point would be that we have the money for both.  And the cost of a sign holds potential to increase our numbers.  Even if only a handful of people sign up to be members those dues would pay for another tool or at least cover the cost of the sign itself.

Again, I don't believe that this will work for everyone that reads the sign, or passes the sign, but I do think it would help.   

Marc- I know there are some signs posted, but other than the one at Renni in the kiosk, I haven't noticed them at the trails I mainly ride, BYT being one.  I rode Beatty a couple of weeks back and the only sign I noticed was a directional that had a TTB logo on it, but the logo is so small it looks like a spider.   
- I agree that a sign with too many bullet points won't get read, so maybe we need to find a way to whittle down the list and simplify it where it is readable.   

I know there are plenty of people on this board that love to play the counter-arguement, or tell everyone why ideas won't work or love to get into debates over semantics.  I'm not looking for an argument, I'm trying to find a way to help alleviate a problem that is great enough to cause many post here.   

In other words if you are bold enough to tell me how my ideas won't work, I challenge you to give me a better alternative.  I'm more than willing to listen to good ideas.

I'm sure I'm inevitably stirring up a pot of trolls with the above post and that it not my intention.  I would sincerely like to create a discussion of what "could be done"...not "what won't work, so don't try anything". 

To hopefully deter the argue hungry crowd, I won't be reply to any other post unless they offer a potentially viable solution.   

and that guy who thinks robots and labor cost the same as a sign is derping hard

I notice quite a few people park at the Entrance of the waste water plant drive and go in to the BYT trails. I have not seen a sign on that side. Am I blind?

RobP wrote on 07/08/13 at 3:51pm:


I appreciate the conscientious reply.  I will only repeat that I think the cost to potential gain ratio would make trying the signs worth a shot.   
Let's table the 24 hour rain rule sign and let me ask about the value of posting of signs for future works days again...

Do you not see any value in being able to hang up a sign 5-6 days before a work day announcing the up and coming work day?   

The sign could be simple: