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Poll Question: Ti frames? found these options available



« Created by: eking7 on: 08/20/22 at 8:57am »
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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Hardtail advice (Read 719 times)
eking7
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Hardtail advice
07/22/22 at 4:42pm
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Fun topic, which next bike to add.  advice welcome.

Very much love my Specialized Enduro, carbon frame, big travel plush Pike up front, cane creek soaking up in the rear.  carbon 27.5 wheelset, 2.5 and 2.8 widths, 1x11.  For what I ride its likely more bike than is required, but I really like the way it feels.  Slack front end (65 deg head angle) and big wide renthal bars.  but I do give up a lot in efficiency with all that suspension, and while it's a relatively light build, it's still an enduro.

What I'm interested in picking up would be a hardtail.  I'd like some of the same feel, so looking for a slack front end (65 or 66 degree head angle), 27.5 wheels, 150mm ish of travel up front.  Dropper, wide bars, large frame, 1x11...  Would really like this bike to be light.  Could sub 25 lbs be a reasonable target?

While I like riding my carbon frame, for this bike would love to go steel this time.  Seems I can find the head angle and the travel in 30lb builds; or builds that are 23-24 lbs but have a 68 or 69 degree head angle.

For example, maybe a steely like a Production Privee Shan or a Ragley Blue Pig, except these are typically 30lb builds?

Or some interest in maybe a Santa Cruz Chameleon in carbon, although not finding these are much lighter.

My budget tops out around $2800 for well prepped lightly used bike.

Happy to take some suggestions on what I might want to look for...



  
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traildog
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #1 - 07/23/22 at 2:12pm
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Canfield Nimble 9 fits the bill.
  
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eking7
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #2 - 07/24/22 at 9:21am
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Canfield Nimble looks like a nice frame.  Is the steering geometry maintained with 27.5 wheels on a 29 frame?  The few builds I found were in the 30lb range.
  
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #3 - 07/24/22 at 11:33am
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Can't answer on the geometry.  Son built up one (black cherry) single speed, fairly light wheelset, nice fork, just under 28lbs.  He loves it, meaning I haven't had a chance to try it out Angry
  
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santana
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #4 - 07/25/22 at 6:26pm
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No need to look anywhere else.

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eking7
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #5 - 07/28/22 at 4:38pm
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Cotic SolarisMax (large)
Wheels:   DCB Carbon 27.5 DT Swiss 350 hubs
Fork:       DVO Sapphire 150mm 27.5
Headset:  Cane Creek 40 Series ZS44/EC44
BB:         SRAM DUB BB73
Crank:     SRAM X01 DUB Boost 32t
Cassette: GX 10-52t
R.Der:     GX 12sp
Shifter:    X01
Dropper:  Highline3 125mm
Brakes:    SRAM Guide
Stem:      Spank Spoon 33 for 31.8
Bars:       Renthal Carbon V2 31.8 30x800
Tires:      Maxis Minion 2.6 / 2.4

Estimating this would be under 25lbs.

Also at least $4k, or way more than I can spend Sad
  
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #6 - 07/28/22 at 9:19pm
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #7 - 07/30/22 at 9:55pm
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You might want to do some math on the weight for that cotic build. If you want super slack and long, cotic is a great way to go. But steel frames weight 6-8lbs and usually build up close to 30lbs. I'd be really surprised even with the carbon wheels of that build is under 28.

Given that our trails are in no way technical, you might want to test ride a few things before building a hardtail. For me, my stumpy and enduro are super fun in the mtns, but charlotte trails I run a vassago with 140 travel and ~67 degree head angle. Given our trails and lack of overall descents that last more than a few seconds, the low, long, slack can feel sluggish if you're just ripping out miles.

FYI my last hardtail was an ibis dv9 (carbon) and even as a singlespeed with xtr cranks, carbon bars, and xc tires was still somewhere around 24lbs built and with pedals, and that's with a ~3.5lb frame and no drivetrain...

Point is, might want to try to throw a leg over a few bikes and ride your favorite trail and see if you like it. Low, low, slack hardtails can be a good do it all bike, but if you're not looking for that, then you might just be disappointed that it's not as cush as the enduro and potentially no faster/more fun.
  
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #8 - 07/31/22 at 8:26am
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I was thinking the same thing as Hudsontp regarding his target weight for the proposed bike.
You could go alloy frame, with a dropper and hit the 28lb range,  maybe 27ish with a Gucci build. If you think you want steel you'd surely be north of that. Sub 25 noway.

I've got a 66 degree, 140mm travel hardtail, and it's fun in the mountains and wide flow trails.  XC stuff-not so much.
« Last Edit: 07/31/22 at 8:34am by SurlyDave »  
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Enoch
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #9 - 07/31/22 at 12:26pm
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You could buy my Carbon XTC for $625, put a 120 fork on it and have a fine local and lite duty MTN bike. Although I have also rode everything in Pisgah on it too. I've had it down to 24 ish with XT/slx parts and 30m rims. It can also be a S/S since it has adjustable drops. It really has been a do all bike.  Only reason Im selling it because I have 2 of them

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« Last Edit: 07/31/22 at 12:28pm by Enoch »  

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eking7
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #10 - 08/01/22 at 8:10pm
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this is good stuff, thanks for your posts.

65-66 deg head angle is as much to match my other bike, keep them very similar in feel, as much as making it super cushy.  same reason for 27.5 and the renthal bars.

It would be easier to pick up a carbon frame and get closer to the weight.  I had hoped steel would be more compliant than carbon and just feel better.

I'm attempting to do the math on the weight, but it's all based on published claimed weight, and I won't have accounted for cables, or fasteners, or.... pedals now that we mention it.

One big takeaway from these posts is that, yes, I am after a faster bike on local XC, and not that our stuff is super-crazy-rooty...  but a slack hardtail might not get me there.  I picked up an efficient short travel full suspension a few years ago, attempting to find a light fast bike with relatively stiff pedal platform and effective damping.  I got a scalpel and over a few years made a bunch of mods.  In the end I've never been good with it.  A friend of mine has ridden it and likes, so it will go to him on the cheap once I figure something else out.
  
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #11 - 08/01/22 at 8:20pm
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also interesting:  Cotic responded to my email:

"Thanks for getting in touch. The SolarisMAX is designed to run 29er 
forks 120-140mm. You can run 650b+ wheels in the frame, but you still 
need the 29er fork to maintain geometry."
  
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #12 - 08/02/22 at 8:56am
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Weight is one of the two reasons Santana suggested the vassago. Ti rides similar to steel but at a weight in between carbon and aluminum.  The Radimus has quickly become my favorite hardtail I've ever had (probably had 6-8 hardtails, lost count...) because the ride is FAR less harsh than carbon (our roots are unforgiving...) and is still light and snappy. 

Either way you go you'll end up with a bike that rides different than the enduro, so same cockpit and brakes makes the transition pretty seamless, but if you find the hardtail equivalent of the enduro I'd suspect you'll be highly disappointed and just rather ride the enduro. 

As a general rule you can expect the weight of frames to come in at:
Carbon - 2.5-4lbs (from what I could find, the carbon chameleon was close to 4lbs, super light XC bikes with steep geo will be on the lower side)
Ti - 3-4lbs
Aluminum -  4-5lbs
Steel - 6+ lbs (if I recall, the newer version of the nimble nine might have been as low as 5.5lbs, but I think the cotic is around 7)

Best to try to throw a leg over some bikes before pulling the trigger, I've been through a long list and every frame material before landing on the vassago... and the transition between bikes is not that noticeable, as the trails you're riding will make more of a difference. Having a 65HA is great at steep gnar, but you're not going to find a spot in Charlotte that you'll need that confidence. Mtns and Charlotte are quite different, so is the bike choice for where you're riding...

Just my $0.02, buy whatever you want. Wink
  
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eking7
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #13 - 08/13/22 at 9:00am
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thanks for the good advice.  still pondering my best option.  I think I will try to hook up with a friend of mine and ride his hardtail some, then reconsider.  Titanium is starting to sound really fun, so maybe a few rides will help confirm it's a good idea before I buy.
  
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eking7
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #14 - 08/20/22 at 8:57am
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OK, update I have ridden a very light hardtail at Figure8 and really enjoyed it.  That example was a carbon frame, so giving a nod to the advice above....
  
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eking7
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #15 - 08/20/22 at 10:16am
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Pipedream Moxie Ti
Kingdom Vendetta X3 Ti
Sage FlowMotion TI

Leaning toward the Vendetta?
  
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Re: Hardtail advice
Reply #16 - 08/20/22 at 11:19am
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eking7 wrote on 08/20/22 at 10:16am:
Pipedream Moxie Ti
Kingdom Vendetta X3 Ti
Sage FlowMotion TI

Leaning toward the Vendetta?


Those are all super nice, and the finish on the Sage is awesome. I would again suggest throwing a leg over something with similar geometry before spending that type of coin. Depending on your riding style and fitness/goals, 64 to 65 degree with the super steep top tube  excels on steep and gnarly terrain, esp as an all mountain bike. Personally, I find the sweet spot for our trails to be around 67-67.5, as its far quicker steering and snappy. The slack head angle really comes alive at speed and on extended downhills... which we lack in our area. If you look at the marketing videos for the all.mtn hardtails,  you may notice that the trails they are riding are steep, fast, and not nearly as rooty..roots...

But again comes to riding style.  If you like social rides and aren't worried about average speeds than those might be the ticket. If you want to go far and fast, I find more sweet spot with the "modern" xc/"downcountry" geo like the Radimus. Just remember, you have an enduro, so trying to get the same geometry as that, but in a hardtail that's only going to be a few pounds lighter, will make you like the hardtail less (because it'll never be as good as the enduro downhill) and probably like the enduro less since it won't seem to pedal quite as well as the hardtail... if your bikes are too similar with a ton of overlap it just makes you think "did I bring the wrong bike" on every trail... 

In my experience, as long as the cockpit setup is similar,  and def suggest keeping the same brake levers between bikes, then you can quickly acclimate to each bike. Keeping the same wheel size is another way to help acclimate,  but the difference between larger 27.5 (2.8s or so) and 29x2.3/2.4 isn't that drastic.

Anyway, no judgement, get whatever you want. But I've been through dozens of bikes over the last 20 years and "refined" my opinions through experience (read, spending money on bikes and learning the hard way). 

Just on a social ride and chat up the guys on similar geometry bikes that you're looking at,  and see if you can throw a leg over for a mile or two...might save you a few grand...
  
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